This common phrase used by Christians, and first used in the letters of Paul, has caused a lot of confusion. It is as if our sinfulness caused him to be killed and his dying caused God to love us. It leaves us very guilty, usually grateful, but not really empowered or transformed. Redemption is something we “watch” more than participate in.
The Western mind prefers to interpret things “instrumentally” that is, in terms of cause and effect This is what Scholastic philosophy called an “efficient cause”, but it is not really helpful in understanding spiritual things. It is too linear, mechanical, and never gets close to the multilayered mystery of any event, least of all something as profound as this. Redemption becomes a kind of heavenly transaction between Jesus and God– but we are not really in on the deal. It happened then but not also now. I might be grateful but I am not really engaged.
So try this: “Christ died for our sins” means that he died in solidarity with– and in loving communion with–all human failure, mistakes, and absurdity–and thus made them non-absurd! (“With our sins” might be the more helpful preposition than “for our sins”.) All human suffering and even our failures can henceforth be seen as part of the entire mystery of transformation into God. Thus he rightly renamed (“redeemed”?) the dark side of everything, which is what always discourages and defeats us. Now we can be both grateful and highly motivated. Life and death are both good! We are now participants instead of spectators. We are still very grateful but now gratitude is the very ground floor of our universe, because nothing, absolutely nothing is wasted in the Divine Economy of Grace. All of your life and all of your dyings are indeed part of the deal!
“Let me tell you a secret: “We are not going to die, but we will all be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51)
Thank you for this exposition and explanation; I wish I had had it in my pocket on Thursday to give to a elderly lady who confronted me out of the blue with; ‘forgive me, forgive me, Christ died for our sins.’ I heard from others that she was confronting everyone with this same statement. I told her, “Lady, you are loved, ” and hugged her, but I don’t think she believed me. I thought later she was convinced that that was what she had to do – her penance, so to speak. I’ll print this out and carry it with me; if I see her again, I’ll give her your thoughts. Thanks again, keep up the good work. Shalom, Trish Miller
Beautiful! I cannot imagine waking up with such profound thoughts! I was just reading today’s reflection in your book, Wondrous Encounters, and this post is a perfect addition to what I just read in the book!
Thanks again Richard!
I love that bit of Scripture at the end.
I find it helpful to substitute Christ died ” because of sin”‘, The mortally wounding consequences of sin, result in a death to God/Love within us…agape, charity go down to an icy grave within our deadened souls. Yet, thanks be to God, the hidden, penetrating action of the DIvine Leaven finds a way to enter every dead place, calling forth life, drawing good from every crucifixion humanity suffers or participates in. .
Dear Fr. Rohr,
This, together with the latest posts on Suffering, are some very profound teachings. They fit exactly with my experience in this remarkable second half of life. I thank God I have lived long enough that this should begin to make such deep sense to me, and that I should feel such gratitude for ALL of it. Only now do I see the darkness and the light as inseparable and glorious: no more lip service, just a dance, or a falling to my knees in wonder that yes, nothing is ever wasted. What brilliance there is in the apparent mess of life if we can only stay engaged with it. And I would never venture to choreograph anyone else’s dance (though I’ve spent a lifetime trying!) because the steps of my own turn out to be so unexpected, so very odd! I simply could not have planned it. I would have left all the most important bits out, in sheer terror!
Thank you for articulating it so well. I’m so grateful for your messages.
I love how you worded this: “What brilliance there is in the apparent mess of life if we can only stay engaged with it.”
Jesus whipped, thorns pierce
Being his mission for us
My misfitting body
Suffering is real
You lived THE passion with us
Healing our life now
I am deeply moved by this post. I learned the last few days about entering into the suffering and now to have redemption clarified just in time for holy week is too joyous to describe. Thank you RIchard
This makes so much more sense than “paying the price for God’s anger” or “God’s righteousness”. It is so hard to accept our failings, but maybe possible with Jesus. As you , Richard, have taught, we learn far more from our mistakes than from our successes. Thank you always for leading me another step along the way. Many times I think it might be time to just rest, but you always find a way to call us forth. I and we (my husband) are so grateful.
Would you please expound on this more when you get time? Is the word redemption synonymous with the word atonement? Is your explanation of redemption more far reaching than traditional Christianity teaches?
Your 2nd question. Nothing human is unknown to this Christ. Thank you for your question about Redemption and atonement. I ask, “After a personal encounter with this Christ who knows (redeems?) me, how is it that I am to allow this knowing to pass through me?” If by grace I walk in solidarity with His redeeming, how am I to join with Him in making use of what I have learnt? (atonement?)
The Eastern master says: “Those that know cannot say, those that say, cannot know.”
Is atonement what happens when I live among those who are frightened to encounter Christ and they transfer their fear onto me?
Is the tension of holding my known Redemption, atonement at work?
How does the understanding of levels of spiritual growth help?
Jesus paid a price, because he was leading us to know the truth, because he was teaching us how to get united with God, because he was telling us through our mistakes and failures we can get closer and get to know God. We still are to work with our shortcomings individually and collectively as He taught us. This is how I understand. Is this different from what you are saying here? Please correct me if necessary, writing here is bit fancy for me Fr. Rohr.
I’m interested in reading more about “Christ died with our sins.” I guess that will be in the new book. My own take is that Christ died because of our sins, but he was not a victim of our sins. He freely chose to let it happen so that we might gaze upon the cross and be confronted with what we do: we kill God. We are all abortionists when it comes to allowing God into our lives. Yes, I know, that sounds pretty grim, but the good news is that it doesn’t have to be permanent for us. We are, at every moment, given the chance to renew life, to partake in the resurrection.
Thank you Fr. Richard!
I don’t expect to ever understood this, but on some level (not sure which) I “get it”. Your explanation is wonderful and helpful. I keep going back to your saying that what we don’t transform, (our sufferings, failures, etc.) we will transmit. That makes perfect sense to me! Please keep it coming.
Reblogged this on The Bare Witness and commented:
Amazing view to contemplate during this Easter season and daily..
Thank You Fr. Richard.I have puzzled over this for a long, long time, perhaps since I was a teen.
I have read and pondered over the words in your blog and” feel ” the truth in what you say.
There is still much mystery. The mind can’t grasp it all…and perhaps that’s a blessing, an indication that I should, “Be still” and let the Spirit bring me to whatever level of understanding I am called to be at right now. Have a Happy Easter, Father Richard! May God Bless You!
Fr. Richard, this sounds wonderful, really wonderful. I was in Rome and Assisi with Franciscans last years and I tasted this there with the wonderful thought of Bonaventure. I am touched in my heart by your sharing. Thank you. Bill Coffey
Dear Richard and ‘Charlotte Charlotte’ March 31 8.25am,
From one second half of lifer to others…. “Thank you’ : )
“The disciples came to Jesus and asked, “What is the world’s sin? Jesus replied,
‘There is no sin in reality! It is you who create sin,
when you do deeds such as adultery that are called sinful.
That’s why good enters into your heart to return you back to your source,’ ”
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene 4:26.
To think that for over 2000 years we have wasted so much time, energy, and anxiety focusing on the “shadow”, that which is unreal – and not on the Light”, that which is real – God our Parent and on Love, our Divine Parent’s Energy moving in and through everything in the universe.
What said it all to me was growing in a church that declared eating meat on Fridays to be a mortal sin worthy of an eternity in Hell.
Come Jesus, our Lord, friend and sibling, come
I am just wondering what translation of the Bible the line of Scripture is from. The word all seems to be missing from “We are not going to die.” (I am glad to see it go)
The Greek text clearly has all for both verbs, die and transform.
Jesus excapes and love abounds. He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit; it is our job to roll the huge stone away and leave it out and about for others. This new temple is within and were our heart is ;where the Holy Spirit resides. It is our job to release that Spirit onto the world thru or gift. We are not He but His spirit resides in each and everyone of us. When we are less than all we were made for, we suppress that Spirit and hold it back from others. In this holy week of celebration it is our job to become that part of the body of Christ we have been made to be. This becomes difficult because the ego or what I think and were taught about ourselves. We are all children of God and therefore all family. This God, Abba or what have you is imprisoned in us when we choose against the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We all are rising to the source and as Jesus did we have a part. As we grasp and hold onto Jesus and His teachings and by releasing that Spirit within for His creation the kingdom comes. We all would like this cup to pass but Jesus shows us the path; the will of God which is the true Spirit inside which He blows in all of us. My job is to exale. Exale that spirit within. Just a thought. Happy holy week to all1 God bless he has for all of us.Your friend G1
I am wondering about your thoughts on Christ’s suffering and death as part of the self-actualization of God–and I acknowledge the edginess of this. That as God, God knew only omnipotence. As the Incarnation, Christ was fully human; not some combo of God/human. He saw only through human eyes. Knew only through human intellect. But to live that way–as we must–was more than enough. Because God chose it–as a way to His self-actualization. He had to know what for Him was (or might have been) not known. if you just want to refer me to some authors or the Catechism, that’s fine. It’s a big topic.
Fr. Richard, thank you. What a beautiful view from here!!! This is one that requires more than one reading. I want to keep company with this one for a while. Will have to get back to you.
Janis
AHHHHHHHH! Such a Breath of Fresh Spirit! God continues to be illuminated through you to me and somany others. Many blessings to you Father Richard! This is the God that I know in my soul- and this is my brother who helps me at the transforming cross. May God be continue to be praised through these revelations. Linda Cannon
Jesus escapes and love abounds. He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit; it is our job to roll the huge stone away and leave it out and about for others. These new temples is within and were our heart is; where the Holy Spirit resides. It is our job to release that Spirit onto the world thru or gift. We are not He but His spirit resides in each and every one of us. When we are less than all we were made for, we suppress that Spirit and hold it back from others. In this holy week of celebration it is our job to become that part of the body of Christ we have been made to be. This becomes difficult because the ego or what I think and was taught about us. We are all children of God and therefore all family. This God, Abba or what have you is imprisoned in us when we choose against the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We all are rising to the source and as Jesus did we have a part. As we grasp and hold onto Jesus and His teachings and by releasing that Spirit within for His creation the kingdom comes. We all would like this cup to pass but Jesus shows us the path; the will of God which is the true Spirit inside which He blows in all of us. My job is to exhale. Exhale that spirit within. Just a thought I pondered. Happy Holy week to all! God bless he has for all of us. Your friend G1 Corrected copy
About 10 years ago, I wrote an email to Michael Himes asking this same question. Below is his response. I continue to find it helpful (especially this time of year), and as a result of adding Richard’s response to this question, my grasp on the meaning of the redemption is gaining strength. Hopefully readers of this blog find it helpful too:
I think the single biggest obstacle to understanding the redemption is that we think of Jesus’ death as somehow changing God. What I mean is that so often we have tended to talk about God’s being angry or alienated from humanity and in some way being appeased by Jesus’ suffering so that God is now pleased with us once again. This is, of course, is mythology pure and simple – if mythology is ever pure and simple.
However we understand the redemption worked in Christ, it has to be seen as effecting a change in us, not in God. God is and remains sovereignly God, perfect agapic love. The redemption is therefore not a tale of how God was angry and is now pleased. Rather, it is the story of how God has always loved and forgiven creatures. Once we did not recognize, believe and accept that love and now we do.
Thus Jesus’ death is sacramental in the sense that a sacrament makes present what has always been the case but was not effectively present for us. Grace flooded the world before Jesus’ death and floods it now. What has changed is that previously we could miss the fact, whereas now, because of the self-giving of Jesus even to the point of death, we cannot.
In Christ we see the perfect self-gift of God in human form, and the ultimate expression of that self-giving agape is Jesus’ definitive handing over of himself in death. It is the ultimate (in the sense of unrepeatable and unsurpassable) sacrament of God’s acceptance of us and gift of God’s self to us.
Thus, the cross reveals two things simultaneously, I think. On the one hand, it reveals the horrible reality of human sin and evil: if Absolute Love enters the world, we will torture it to death. On the other hand, it reveals the even greater depth of the love of God: even as we torture Absolute Love to death, we are still loved absolutely (“Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”)
So Jesus’ death is not the price that had to be paid to purchase God’s forgiveness. God has never not forgiven us. Rather Jesus’ death is the definitive revelation in our world of the omnipresent love of God which has always forgiven and will always forgive us, even in the face of the very real and very terrible fact of human sinfulness. Now, we can reject it (tragically), but we cannot miss it. (“Where sin abounds, grace is even more abundant.”)
I agree with what you have said. Sometimes when we accept that love, we take advantage of it, assuming that since we’ve got a nice big sugar daddy who is going to love us no matter what, it’s o.k. if we go ahead and trash the place. That’s one response.
Another response is to feel we have to earn it, even if it is given. In other words, we can’t really accept that much generosity; we’re like a poor man pridefully insisting on picking up the tab for a whole restaurant full of millionaires instead of humbly letting them pick up his.
Lastly, there is an overwhelmingly grateful response that gives life. This response is to hold it all so dear that we desire to do nothing to harm it or destroy it, and to do everything in the power that God gives us to keep it fresh and growing.
I’ve always struggled with the thought that the only way for God to forgive our sins was for Jesus to be crucified. “This common phrase used by Christians, and first used in the letters of Paul, has caused a lot of confusion. It is as if our sinfulness caused him to be killed and his dying caused God to love us.” My thought has always been that God didn’t need us to do anything, in this case crucify Jesus, to forgive our sins. I do believe with all my heart that the incarnation of Jesus, his crucifixion/death, and resurrection is God’s great redeeming act of salvation for me, and for all; and that in this redeeming act, my sins are forgiven.
So, I enjoyed Fr. Rohr’s offer of clarification: “So try this: ‘Christ died for our sins’ means that he died in solidarity with– and in loving communion with–all human failure, mistakes, and absurdity–and thus made them non-absurd! (‘With our sins’ might be the more helpful preposition than ‘for our sins’.) All human suffering and even our failures can henceforth be seen as part of the entire mystery of transformation into God. Thus he rightly renamed (‘redeemed’?) the dark side of everything, which is what always discourages and defeats us.”
Over the last 7 weeks I’ve had the opportunity to share with a group of men recovering from substance addiction. After our first session, I struggled with how I could possibly talk with them about spirituality and the 12 Steps, their recovery, given I am by definition not a substance addict – even though another of my spiritual fathers once told me that any 12 step program in the country would love to have me as a member. It struck me that their addiction, their specific wound, gave them a “solidarity” with Christ that I did not have. The next morning, in prayer and at Eucharist, God clarified it for me. I’m a “recovering” Christian, and I’ve given Him plenty of material to work with, more than enough “human failure, mistakes, and absurdity.” He declared me in “solidarity” with Christ’s death “with” and for our sins.
This Lent, in prayer, Eucharist, and the recovery of these men whose very life depends on transformation, I can see how, as Fr. Rohr says, God “uses everything” to redeem us. Of course he uses the light of prayer, Eucharist, and church; but he also uses the “dark side of everything,” especially the wounds, to create “solidarity” with Jesus the Christ.
There is an “absurdity” to all this. But in a redemption where the “wound,” as Fr. Rohr likes to say, “is the place of the healing,” the language of transformation is more about faith than wisdom.
I too am grateful to you Richard and to others’ responses….and to the Spirit for being among us.
Christ died as one of us…takes my breath away.
We will rise again as one with him.
“All human suffering and even our failures can henceforth be seen as part of the entire mystery of transformation into God.” What joy! Actually, what a relief…
I have been troubled by the problem of Jesus dying for our sins for a long time. Thank you so much for this teaching. Like a previous commentator, I almost get it and will keep reflecting on it. Bless you.
This may be the most helpful perspective I’ve ever read, heard, and/or considered on Christ and what each of us brings to the table.
Thank you!
What a gift and Blessing to read this today. I am so grateful to be living the second half of this life. Thank you! And Thank God!
Solidarity “with out sins” but mostly “with our pain”…It is Good Friday and I wanted to share my journal entry for today as I pondered the Agony in the Garden. The Agony in the Garden
Luke 22:39-44 And he (Jesus) came out and went, according to his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him. But when he was at the place, he said to them, “Pray, that you may not enter into temptation.” And he himself withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and knelling down, he began to pray, saying, Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will but Thy will be done.” And there appeared to him an angel from heaven to strengthen him. And falling into an agony he prayed the more earnestly. And his sweat became as drops of blood running down upon the ground.
Mark 14:37 Then he came and found them (his disciples) sleeping. And he said to Peter, “Simon doest thou sleep? Couldst thou not watch one hour?”
Author of the “Power of Now” Eckhart Tolle says that there are two kinds of surrender. Ideally we surrender to “what is” but when we cannot do that, we must surrender to the pain that arises when unconditional surrender is not possible. We just let ourselves feel the pain that our conditional response has precipitated. If we allow ourselves to feel it then we can own it and give it to God, let it go.
Gethsemane teaches me to drink the cup, feel the pain instead of stuffing it and turning it into debilitating resentment. As Franciscan priest Richard Rohr teaches: “If our pain is not transformed, it will be transmitted.”
Gethsemane reminds me that conditional surrender is enough. It reminds us that transformation is God’s business. Willingness is mine. Gethsemane teaches me to let God transform my pain. It reminds me that the Father will roll away the stone and raise me up if I am willing.
The following Good Friday reflection is written by Joyce Rupp from her book, “Fragments of Your Ancient Name.”
You (Jesus) knelt in the Gethsemane garden
In the final hours before your death,
the sweat of bloody regret on your brow.
We, too, have our painful episodes
when the bitter taste of obvious defeat
barricades any hope of comfort and release.
You join us in our bitter hours of struggle
when opposition, discontent, or lament
block the corridors to our peacefulness.
You reassure us, “This, too, will pass.”
how about “Christ died IN our sins” Just seems all that more personal. He that knew no sin took on the sins of the whole world.
good friday becomes Amazing Friday for me when i remember the motivation with which He did this:
love, Love, L O V E! . this is how much He loves me, that He would be broken for me, that He would take on my consequences, that not only did He would stand in for me in the consequences of my broken responses, He now stands with me in them now. His Love, relational acceptance and solidarity go this far: all the way, completely, absolutely, infinitely.
“and NOTHING shall ever seperate me from His love forever.”
Thank you Richard, Words fail me my sense of gratitude for who you are and what you say seem almost boundless. Your thoughts always resonate at the deepest level and I find myself saying again and again, why has no one else said it like this before. When I read what you say I dare to beleive that everthing, will indeed, be ok that I and you and the whole of humanity are in the safest of hands and that God, contrary to what my own faith teaches, will never and has never given up on US and YOU and ME. This, for me, is the essense of the REAL gospel….thank you.
Amen! It’s bone-marrow graitutude!
Your loving and trustful letter made me very happy today, and some day
I will be able to tell you fully why! Thank you so much, Patricia!
I also think that the metaphor of the lotus flower is in alignment with Jesus going to the cross. How? The lotus uses the mud to grow–to flower. Jesus also does the same with the mud of the world–taking on the mud he flowers into enlightenment. Or, in other words, he takes on human sin, and uses it for nutrition for resurrection! One aspect of this process is the “descent into Hell.” From here, the process really begins…this is akin to the roots going down into the mud. This is perhaps a metaphorical view, but metaphor seems to point to the REAL in some way–right?
Kind Regards,
Jason Gosnell
Jason, beautifully stated. I find this very helpful. Thank you.
Janis
“he died in solidarity with– and in loving communion with–all human failure, mistakes, and absurdity–and thus made them non-absurd”… beautifully said! Finally a reflection on “the father’s will” and “yeshua’s suffering/death” that doesn’t put the divine, the eternal, the infinite… into a box (which could be considered blasphemy though that would be dualistic thinking).
Thank you for this beautiful tidbit!
What amazes me is that this has always been my view and understanding (“that Jesus died in solidarility with, in loving comunion with all human failure, mistakes, and absurdity, and thus made them non-absurd.”) At least that is the love of God I knew as a young person and it’s how I came out of the charismatic renewal in the early 70s. No doubt it also represents how many years now so many of us have studied with you and other wisdom teachers. There really is a community of faith on this kindred journey, and what a privilege for you to be able to witness that world wide. We are truly blessed that we know we are bearers of good news. Thank you always for the leadership you provide on the journey.